• Twitter
• Facebook
• Instagram

Mischief Makers Episode 32: Curtis Rivers

Intro: Welcome to Mischief Makers, your one stop shop for all things Mischief. Join your host Dave Hearn as he finds out what makes Mischief, well, Mischief!Dave Hearn: Hello and welcome to another episode of Mischief Makers with me, Dave Hearn, and... I said that in a very weird way, I said that quite sinister! "Me, Dave Hearn!" It's been a while, but obviously... I've realised if you're listening to this for the first time, it's not been a while at all, it's just your first one. So welcome!I'm very excited today, as you may hear in my voice, because I am doing two wonderful things! The first one is my guest today I'm interviewing from an actual studio - so he's sat like 2ft away from me, which is really exciting. And the second thing is I'm interviewing Stunt Coordinator, Author and World-Record Holder: Curtis Rivers!Curtis has done a lot of mad stuff in his career and we're going to talk about some of that today. And also worked with us as Stunt Coordinator on The Goes Wrong Show. So hello Curtis!Curtis Rivers: Hello! Lovely to be here, thanks for inviting me!DH: My absolute pleasure to have you. So we tend to do this interview in sections - so the first section is called Getting To Know You, so we're going to get to know you, Curtis Rivers. So firstly, can you tell us a bit about how you got into becoming... because you were a Stunt Man before a Stunt Coordinator right?CR: That's right.DH: So how did you get into that?CR: So I was the little kid people laughed at at school who wanted to be a stuntman when I was a little boy. And I was a really unsporty kid, really nerd like, I wasn't really athletic. But I wrote away to Equity as a little kid when I was 11...DH: Oh wow!CR: And I've got the reply framed in my office, where they gave a big list of all these different sports skills. I'd need to become a professional actor first and then do loads of these different skills to like black-belt level.DH: Oh wow!CR: So I thought, "Oh... well I'm not very sporty... that's that then!" But then I took to Amateur Dramatics, became a professional actor later on - while acting and trained in all these different skills to black-belt level and qualified in my twenties.DH: So are you a sort of lethal weapon? What are you a black-belt in?CR: Quite a few different bits and bobs.DH: Oh wow!CR: I did judo for the stunt register, which is the government body of stunts in the UK. And later I did Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do and a bit of Jujutsu and that kind of thing.DH: Oh wow! So you're like that scene in The Matrix, where they upload all of the martial arts into you. That's just you! That is amazing.CR: But it took about seven years of uploading that!DH: And so did you have to do it at a professional level or a semi-professional level?CR: Yeah, there's six basic skills you need (I did ten in the end). And they're all to instructor standards - so they pool into black belt. So if you're taking up horse riding, you've got to be competition standard, successful competition experience in show jumping, that kind of thing.DH: So it's quite a long road then. Is that just to get on the register?CR: Yeah, that's just to become a probationary stunt man. And then you need a minimum of three years on the job training. Usually takes about five. Took me 15 years altogether to get from off the street to Stunt Coordinating.DH: Wow... I love the idea of you just being on the street doing Jujutsu! [Laughs]CR: Exactly!DH: And so you do these things, so what are the other disciplines? You've got martial arts, you don't have to go through them all, but you said horse riding?CR: Yeah, they've got to drop into different areas - so they can't all be fighting. One must be fighting, at least one. I did fencing and became a fencing instructor, then horse riding, then there's things like sky diving, hang gliding, trampolining, power boating, springboard diving, that kind of things. So lots of different [things], swimming, sub-aqua.DH: And so you got to an instructor level, so you were able to teach other people?`CR: Yeah, I used to teach fencing.DH: Oh wow! And so what was your favourite one? If you couldn't be a Stunt Man and could only do one?CR: Sky diving.DH: Really?CR: Yeah, because again it's one of those ones that I saw as a little kid. There was a TV show in the early 80's called The Fall Guy that I used to watch about a Stunt Man. And Colt Seavers played by Lee Majors and the opening credits of that were he was jumping out of a plane, being followed out by the camera man, it just struck a chord. And I thought, "That would be incredible!"DH: "I want to do that."CR: And about five years later, I was doing it for real - thinking of that opening sequence when I was a little boy.DH: Oh wow! That must be... I don't know, I was going to say that must be terrifying. But maybe it's not, maybe it's completely exhilarating.CR: I think it's different for different people. I'm not actually an adrenaline junkie, which people find strange!DH: Yeah, because it sounds like you are!CR: Yeah, with the profession! Most stunt people are calculating and it's very methodical and there's an intelligent approach to get away without injuring yourself. So the daredevils don't last very long; they get smashed up...DH: They do silly things.CR: So I was nervous on every parachute jump, I did just under 1000 parachute jumps - I haven't jumped for a while now. But yeah, always nervous.DH: Do you want to get to 1000?CR: I should have done! I stopped at literally about 30 jumps short. But it's never too late! I might do it again. I do think about it sometimes, people are sky diving in California and invite me over. I'm considering it.DH: That's cool! And so when you're doing all of these different things, is it quite expensive? Do you have to have a lot of savings to be able to train in all these things? Or are you able to work at the same time?CR: Some people save up a great sum of money and just take time out and they dedicate themselves to training. Or like I did, you hold lots of different jobs down like instructing, like a real job between acting jobs.DH: What was your real job? Like a waiter or like a...?CR: Oh, I did all sorts. I was a school technician to start with, where I used to teach fencing in the same school - get changed into my fencing masters outfit then go back into being a school technician. I did that early days, so it paid well. I've been a doorman...DH: Well that probably in many ways scarier than jumping out of a plane!CR: [Laughs] Absolutely! So yeah, lots of different jobs and then the acting took off and made a living out of that, to finish paying for the training really.DH: That's amazing. And I did a bit of research on you: did you know you have a Wikipedia page?CR: I did yeah!DH: Did you make the Wikipedia page?CR: No.DH: No, okay that's good! I'm glad.CR: I'm surprised it's still there, to be honest.DH: No, it is amazing! So it says you've done a lot of stunt double work?CR: Yeah.DH: Tell us a bit about the stunt double work you've done, presumably that was earlier on before you moved into being a coordinator.CR: Yeah, so there's different sort of stunt people: there's people called utility stunts, who turn up and there's a big battlefield scene. They're one of 20 people charging to camera getting shot, that kind of thing. Normally you start that way - I didn't realised until many years into my career - but normally you start by doing a lot of utility stunts and then you're kind of talent spotted for you know like a second in a movie and then double a lead. I was quite fortunate in being picked out early days before I knew that's how it worked. So the first person I was chosen to double was Pierce Brosnan in Tomorrow Never Dies...DH: Ah cool!CR: Because I had a scene with him in the South China seas. On this ship, a door opens and I'm a dopey guard who comes out and he stabs me in the chest. And as the life drains out of me, he dresses myself as him and he holds me and I get shot by the bad guy Stamper and fall in the sea. So it was during that scene which took a couple of nights to shoot, I had somebody say, "Actually you're not a bad double for him" at the time. Similar build and everything. So I was asked if I wanted to do some underwater sequences. So yeah, that was the first time I'd been asked to double somebody.DH: What does that feel like? Is that a strange experience being like "You're going to double this guy and just do the stuff that he..." Because it sounds like you're actually James Bond in many ways!CR: Well in your mind you are when you're doing it! [DH laughs] We're all big kids really! And that's mainly want I did as a stunt performer really, which was more enjoyable - because I had the acting background, you then look at the way people walk. Really early days before you've even introduced yourself, you're watching from the wings - see the way they walk and hold themselves. Because it's not just the way the actor moves, it's the actor in character moves - because you've got to emulate that absolutely spot on so no-one spots the join. You don't want a 70 year old guy jumping on a motorbike and suddenly you've got a spritely 22 year old throwing around and then he climbs off the top! So you generally match their mannerisms and movements.DH: When you're watching movies and stuff, do you look out for doubling? Are you able to spot it most of the time?CR: Yeah, it's early days you spot all sorts of things. And once you see something...DH: You can't unsee it!CR: And I point it out to people watching TV, like continuity errors. Because I find it irritating or lazy when they've just left things in the final cut that are like glaringly obvious to me! So I'll point things out. You'll spot things or start to wonder how you could improve on that.DH: Yeah because people ask me quite a lot about "Is comedy ruined for you whenever you watch funny stuff?" And in some ways it is, because I'm sat there - I'm not laughing, I'm just processing in my mind why something is funny. So I appreciate why it's funny and I'm watching it and in my head I'm going, "Mmm yeah, that's funny. That was well done." So it must be a similar thing where you're watching it and you're appreciating the skill, but actually you're not engaging with it in the same way as other people...CR: Exactly that, you can be analytical sometimes. But it's a different thing, you can be watching and see a stunt well done and think, "Wow, I wasn't expecting that." Because maybe the camera man leapt off the ledge with the actor and you think, "Oh!" If it's a DVD, I'll stop, rewind it, "That was clever! Was he on a wire?" Try and work it out, "Was that CGI?" And then I'll store it somewhere subconsciously, so if I ever need to do that - "They use a steady cam with that as well and he fell and he's attached to the guy" - and I'll just store that and offer that up at a later date and see how we can improve that. You're always looking around at how you can improve it and raise the quality.DH: Some stuff you can steal from others...CR: Well, enhance! [Both laugh]DH: Yeah, enhance - very good homage. So you've kind of got the skills of James Bond and then you've got the Sherlock Mind Palace of stunt ideas. That's so cool. And so one of the things that was sited on the Wikipedia page was falling back 140ft off the British Gas building for Torchwood. That was you?CR: Yeah.DH: And so how does that work? What was that for?CR: That was for a Doctor Who spin-off called Torchwood, and I did three seasons of that doubling John Barrowman who played Captain Jack in the show. And it was great because he's immortal in the show - so I got killed every week in weird and wonderful ways.DH: [Laughs] Oh wow!CR: I was just talking about this yesterday, because I just got the train over from Cardiff where I'm doing Casualty. And when I walk around Cardiff where it was shot, I look around and most of the main buildings I've been chased, filmed by helicopters running across rooftops or falling from a building or standing aloft looking out over the horizon.DH: That's so weird!CR: So that particular one he was just pushed off the roof - they did that with a wire attached to me and fell backwards and just before I hit the ground, the wire pulls up taut and it decelerates on a drum to stop me before I hit the concrete.DH: Oh wow, so there wasn't a box or crashmat or anything?CR: We put an airbag in, just in case. But it was just to make me feel better! When you get up there and look there's no way...DH: Hold on a sec, I'm trying to imagine this. So you're on top of a building that's like 140ft in the air, you're attached to a wire right. What's an airbag?CR: So they put an air bag in, so you start off standing next to an airbag which looks a decent size. It's about the width of four cars and long as say three cars, to give a rough idea. And a very thin wire which seems to get thinner and thinner as you're lifted aloft by a crane. And then you start to pick up the wind and the winds whistling around your ears and all the noise and excitement of the set below disappears - it's just silence, it's just the wind blowing.DH: Oh wow, so you're on your own up there?CR: Just on my own, hoisted up. And then you look over your shoulder and there's someone on a rooftop maybe 30ft below shouting up at the radio "Standby!" That sort of thing. And you just know, it's like a fairground ride, like a rollercoaster - any minute it's going to cut you're going to drop like a stone.DH: Wow!CR: So you're thinking about performance, falling like he does, moving like he does, turning your head from camera. So I'd say it's really nerve-wracking on the run up to it, I get nervous still as a coordinator before stunts. But it's a healthy adrenaline, it sharpens your sense.DH: Excited, not panic inducing.CR: Exactly. But as soon as they say "Action!" it's like pure concentration, so there isn't any nerves, you're just working. So during that fall (albeit ten seconds of it) I'm working all the way down, trying to move as the character did and just focus on what I've got to do.DH: I think I'd be able to do the fall. I'd just be like "Yeah, let's just get me falling and see what happens!" But hold on, so the wire decelerates you? But is that quite sudden, the way it grips against you?CR: It stops within maybe 12ft, it's a rapid deceleration. It's called a decelerator, it goes up to a pulley in the crane which is like 200ft above the ground - then down to the ground where all the mechanism is. And it's wrapped round a drum with a hydraulic break on essentially.DH: So you've got the guys on the floor, directors, ADs and all that kind of stuff. They're looking up at this right? And they're probably just shitting themselves right? They're looking at you hanging off a crane. And what do you think is going through their mind? Because you've got loads of stuff to focus on.CR: They get nervous too, the first ADs get nervous. They're calling it, they're shouting "Action!" It's a mixed bag, other people start gathering round like, "Who's this crazy guy?" The actor comes out of his trailer like "I've got to watch this!"DH: 100%! Like "What's this guy up to?"CR: And we did it about 3.00am actually that and people still came out the woodwork, cars stopped, people got out looking up to see what the fuss was about.DH: It is exciting, it's so unusual! So do you ever have actors who... because you hear all these stories when it comes to Hollywood stuff about actors insisting on doing their own stunts. But in terms of who does it, is it all just insurance and money? Or is there a protocol that you have to go through?CR: Insurance is a big issue, but as a general rule if the actor is doing it then it's not a stunt. As a general rule. And when the actor is also the exec producer, i.e. Tom Cruise something like that, then he has a lot more power to say "Well I don't care how many millions extra it costs. This is what I want to do." But even so there'll be variations - his stunt double will do it all without a wire and maybe Tom Cruise does it with a wire, slight variances of risk. Very, very rarely take it as far as the stunt person would.

DH: Sure. And so from your point of view, is it always better for the actor to do as much as possible? Or is it like an ego thing? Like actors want to do it because they just want to do it? But actually from your point of view, that's your job, your profession, you're meant to take those risks. Why do you think some actors want to insist on doing stuff, I guess?CR: I think a mixture of reasons. Ego creeps in obviously - there can be some big egos out there with actors.DH: Well you're in a room with one right now. [Both laugh]CR: Egos and sometimes a misperception of "How hard can it be to fall through a sugar glass window and land on some boxes or crash mats? It can't be that difficult." And so as the coordinator, I'll start building up... it depend on their personality, their experience and how they listen and take instruction. And I have that ability to call it and say "No, this isn't happening." And I'm very willing to say that, I kind of like saying that! I only ever say it when they're crossing the line and I'll say "No." And so many times people have had that conversation with a producer, a director and a stunt man's done it and took a knock or just about with perfect timing got away with it. And they've said "Yeah good call that! Phew! You were right." And that's why I'm there to be paid, I don't actually arrive with an ego - genuinely, I'm there to help people to help the show and deliver some really great action on the screen where we all walk away afterwards. That's the ideal. Yeah, exactly.DH: And everyone's safe and happy. And it must be really tough because when you're seeing those actors, you're kind of looking out for... maybe it's like a sixth sense, you kind of get a vibe if someone's a bit panicky or not listening or if someone is just... yeah if you're coming in, you meet an actor who's shrugging and being like "How hard can it be?" That's probably like a red flag, isn't it?CR: Yeah, exactly that.DH: That must be really tough. So World Record Holder: so I've got Longest Parachute Jump and Highest Bungee Jump. So let's go in that order - talk me through Longest Parachute Jump, what was that?CR: So this was going back to me wanting to parachute as a small child and then finally at 16 I learned to skydive - I learned the old fashioned way which is a static line jump. When you fall out of the airplane, you're attached to a line and that pulls your shoot. So you just have to learn how to count to three very loud and hold a perfect position so you don't tumble. And you do three or four of those jumps, then they stick a pretend rip cord in and you jump again and they want to see that you don't panic and you can carefully pull this rip cord. And on jump seven, they say "Okay, you're good enough to do this". And it's a very scary moment, they detach the line and you're on your own and you jump out. And if you don't pull that, you're in big trouble. You have a reserve, but that could be scary if you're tumbling as well.DH: And you were 16?CR: Yeah.DH: And how high up are you?CR: Well it progresses - you start at 2500ft and by freefall you're at about 4000ft, which isn't long. At a terminal velocity, 2500ft is 12 seconds from impact.DH: From impact? So that's the ground?CR: Yeah.DH: Okay! [Both laugh] Just to clarify!CR: So I went on that journey and it was exciting, all the way up to this Category 8 at the time - it took a while, it took about 18 months with the British weather, going every weekend doing it. And then suddenly you're awarded your wings as it were...DH: Do you get a little badge?CR: Yeah!DH: Nice!CR: Sew on patch! [Both laugh] A shiny enamel badge. And I just thought, "Well, what now? I've done all of this stuff." And sky surfing was just starting to come in and they didn't like it in England, you had to do that in the States and I couldn't afford that at the time. But I started to think, "I wonder what it would be like to open the parachute high and travel". What sort of distance you could travel. And I was doing hang gliding at the time, I was a club pilot with hang gliding and that's where the idea was born to start looking into it: "I wonder how high up somebody has opened a parachute and how far they've travelled".DH: Wow.CR: So I looked into it and there was a Guinness World Record at the time, where a guy in the 50's had got hung up in the deserts with thermals in the military and his flight had lasted 40 minutes.DH: Oh wow.CR: I thought, "40 minutes?! Incredible!"DH: That's like fighting with the parachute?CR: Yeah, it kept lifting him up and he'd fall down to the ground - lift him up again. So he was actually airborne for 40 minutes. And I just set the idea in motion of "That would be great, how do I do this?" So long story short, the way to do it was to get to 30,000ft to have enough time to break that record. And therefore 30,000ft, you're wearing an oxygen mask.DH: How high do most planes go?CR: It's about the same, 30 - 35,000ft. It's the same sort of corridor. So when you're looking out the plane and going on your holidays and you look out and there's that frost on the inside you see...DH: And some geezer in a parachute trying to break the world record!CR: Waving! [Laughs] And that's it, so that was the origin of that and I managed to fly over the Andalusian mountains after several attempts. We had a fire onboard, the hot air balloon at one point rapidly descended...DH: Sorry what?! There was a fire on the hot air balloon?CR: It's all a learning curve! There's no manual of how to get a regular hot air balloon, fly to 32,000ft and jump out! [Laughs] It's all testing, experimenting, meeting with people.DH: How big was this fire?`CR: It was... [Laughs] It was about a foot from us, leaning out. I had a parachute on, Charlie the balloon pilot didn't.DH: So you're alright, you just jumped off! [Laughs]CR: So that was my get out, to bail out. All it was was propane freezes, we didn't know the seals don't work above 25,000ft. You start to get little icicles around the burners and they start to pop out and when you light it, it can set fire to the icecubes basically. And a big fire broke out which we put out, rapid descent, put that out on that particular one. And then climbed and didn't have enough fuel left to get to altitude, so we aborted that one.DH: So it's just kind of trial and error? So you go back up, you go "We know this is a problem".CR: Yeah, so we replaced them with silicone seals, we had a meeting with a guy called Per Lindstrand who did the cross the Atlantic with Richard Branson years ago. He came onboard and helped us with advice and said "Oh yeah, we found that out!"DH: "A classic error!"CR: [Both laugh] Yeah! "Schoolboy error!"DH: So how long were you in the air for once you...CR: 45 minutes.DH: 45 minutes? Do your legs go numb?CR: That was the least of my concerns! [Laughs]DH: I'd just be worried about getting pins and needles!CR: We did have! But there's so much to consider, because there's so much that can go wrong. Your oxygen can fail and I would have had to cutaway the main canopy and skydive with just one spare shoot then, no reserve to oxygen, to reach air. And when I was getting lower to the ground, the balloon stayed with me as much as he could - because I had a camera on my helmet and I was filming him for a documentary, circling round him filming his balloon and he was filming me. And suddenly he put his burner on and rapidly rose and I thought, "Why is he...?" And then I looked and there's like a mountain range in front of me! [Laughs] Loads of forests, like nowhere to land at all. And loads of thermals kept collapsing the canopy and I just had to pick a spot, it literally looked like a footpath and it was maybe seven feet wide. And I just went just through the trees and found a footpath in this forest to land.DH: I was going to ask, in your planning of it - are you trying to think of the ideal place to land? Or is it just "We're just going to go here"?CR: You have a good idea because Charlie the balloon pilot is thinking of flight corridors, he's weaving, going under this flight corridor, above this one. And the area of Spain we chose like Andalusia was perfect not to encounter aircrafts at that altitude, so that's a consideration. And nearer the ground it's normally like wide open farmland, but because I'm concentrating on holding a parachute just before the stall, to slow down my descent - didn't have a lot of choice until the last [second]. Yeah, it just had to be done.DH: Classic footpath! Wow! That is amazing. And so you are the current world record holder?CR: Yeah, I believe so.DH: That is very exciting! I'm sat here with a world record holder! And second one: the Highest Bungee Jump, was that off of a hot air balloon as well?CR: Yeah, that was a tag onto the project because we had some sponsors, Damart Thermal Wear. Because of the [temperature] well below zero at these altitudes you're jumping, so we definitely needed decent thermal wear! So we had that on. And we'd had a few failed attempts... I don't like using that term 'failed', but it was just a massive learning curve...DH: A few learning curves.CR: Yeah, they were just steps needed to get the success in the end. So one of those was a "What if you keep getting held back by weather? Is there anything you can do newsworthy if you can't get to 30,000ft?" So I'd looked into bungee jumping and in the Guinness Book of Records it was 8,000ft the world record, just over 8,000ft. So we thought, "How hard can that be?" Did some tests on the ground from a crane with me jumping with the parachute on to test the weight differences and that kind of thing.DH: Sure.CR: Designed a quick release system so when I'm upside down in the balloon, I can pull a rip cord and it will release me from the bungee without taking out the pilot and all these kind of things. And then just as we were about to go over, we found out an unofficial record existed of 10,500ft. So it's like, "Right, that's a bit of a test now!" So that then put us into breathing oxygen before I jumped.DH: So how high did you go in the end?CR: 15,200ft.DH: Casual! Just a casual 15! [Both laugh] So I think I remember you telling me a story when we were at the Holiday Inn...CR: The luxury one!DH: When we were filming Series 1. One of the luxury places to stay in Media City! So you had a couple of attempts at it - did something go wrong on the first attempt where you couldn't release yourself from the bungee?CR: Yeah, that was the first ever test at a lower altitude.DH: I love it that you're just testing it out at 15,000ft! [Laughs]CR: Yeah, exactly! So we did a test for the release mechanism and because the air is much more rarefied, what worked on the ground didn't work at altitude. Because the air's so thin I fell so much faster attached to the bungee cord that it ripped the actual rip cord which was on my leg. It ripped it completely off down to below my foot. So if you imagine that I'm upside down and it was about a foot lower than the heel of my boot.DH: Oh wow.CR: So with all the strength, you kind of do a stomach crunch to touch your toes, if you're lucky. It's like a child hanging on your shoulders...DH: And you're upside down at 15,000ft.CR: So then I just couldn't reach it. And we had back up plans to eject the bungee cord if need be and this kind of thing. But if he ejects the bungee cord, I'm free-faling at 120mph, still can't reach my heel because I wouldn't have the strength in my leg to lift up a very heavy bungee cord.DH: Because your feet would be tied together right?CR: They were connected, they were wired apart - connected by a wire. But it was essentially all on one leg, the pressure once you get to the end.DH: So at that altitude you're hanging upside down, your rip cord's broken. Is that what he did, did the pilot release you?CR: No, we designed to descend rapidly. We had different hand signals we'd agreed in advance beyond panic gestures.DH: So how far away are you... 30m, 40m? How long's the bungee?CR: Probably extended, probably just 120ft.DH: So he can see you frantically waving!CR: Yeah! Frantically waving the "Do not cut" signal.DH: So hang on, he descended and you're hanging underneath the balloon as it's coming down? But you're upside down...CR: Yeah, spinning! [Laughs]DH: Okay, great! Spinning, dizzy, upside down, not a lot of air up there. And then you just go all the way to the ground.CR: So it was an emergency landing with me suspended beneath the balloon basket.DH: And how do you not land on your face?!CR: Well you just watch and look at the ground coming up and then curl up.DH: That's literally the technique? Just like get out of the way of the floor?! [Laughs]CR: Took impact on the back of the parachute, so that saved my back. Ripped all that to bits. I got away with just a small cut next to my eye, like a little thorn scratched me as I was dragged through all these bushes!DH: You were dragged through bushes?! [Laughs]CR: Yeah, it was hilarious! I wish I'd kept the footage, because we had a camera looking straight down below the balloon basket. So what's worse is it's embarrassing enough and painful enough hitting the ground - but then what happens is the balloon keeps going...DH: Of course! [Laughs]CR: With the wind! That bungee cord, just when you're thanking your good Lord for the survival - it pulls taut and taut and taut and suddenly whips you through all the bushes and undergrowth.DH: That must have been terrifying... or at the time were you like "I'm fine now, I'm on the ground"?

CR: Well I suppose in hindsight, you're in a bit of shock. The adrenaline has kicked in, you land and think "Thank God for that!" and then suddenly you start to move slowly and accelerate and get dragged and then you very quickly just reach your boot and pull the ring cord and it detaches. And then he flew off again because it's like dropping ballasts - he then took off and landed two miles away.DH: So you're just now in a field with a bungee cord.CR: A long, long walk waiting for pick up! [Both laugh] Stashes the parachute, found a road, starting walking.DH: Oh wow!CR: About an hour later, somebody came along - a local who'd seen it all happen worked out where I was and gave me a lift to the local town.DH: Just like "What are you doing?!"CR: Exactly! I was asking myself the same question!DH: So this is very much the less glamorous side of the world record.CR: Yeah, I didn't tell a lot of people about that for a number of years. [Laughs] I just dined on the victory jump.DH: Wow, that is amazing. So how long before that first attempt did you go back to try a second one.CR: It was quite quick, about less than three months.DH: Was there ever a moment in your mind where you were like "Fuck this, I'm not doing this".CR: No, I could never end on that. Because the next time it was chest mounted, I had Teflon cables going down each leg. It was a hell of a pull on my leg on that one, that's why I went down both legs on the other jump.DH: And presumably when you jump initially and the cable goes taut, does it not tilt the balloon off balance?CR: No there's a technique he goes into, you see. You go into a little bit of a dive. The jumper goes and then you let a bit of air out of the balloon to start a rapid descent. the wires can stretch the balloon.DH: Oh so the momentum is going with you?CR: Yeah.DH: So that's obviously nuts: you're jumping out and he's essentially hurtling towards the ground?CR: Yeah. [Both laugh] All good fun, I enjoyed it.DH: Wow, that is amazing. Absolutely amazing. I think we're alright for time, but let's keep moving. So I didn't know this, you've written two books.CR: Yeah.DH: You've written Seven Paths to Freedom and The Fearless Path. Tell us a bit about those.CR: So they came about, I started doing talks. First of all I was invited to my old secondary school by my own form tutor, which was kind of cool - he tracked me down and he said that these kids at that moment didn't have a lot to aspire to. The girls were getting pregnant at 14 because the parents were telling them it might be good for benefits and things like that. And the lads, there was no prospect of work, doom and gloom and that kind of thing. And I'm a very positive thinker so my form tutor remembered me saying I'd be a stuntman. And a lot of people laughed and he sort of smirked.DH: This was when you were 11?CR: Yeah, he was my form teacher from my like 12 to 14, Mr Gallagher. And he'd got in touch and said "Would you come and talk to the school?" So I went there and put a picture up of me in the school uniform, PowerPoint, and said the truth. It was a good message because it was from the heart and I could say, "Look when I was your age or even younger, I used to get laughed at. I was asked to read my diary today and I've looked through my old diary entry and I'm cringing saying this, but I wanted to be a stuntman when I was your age." And you could see them all thinking "Ugh, who's this guy?" Because I was dressed in a suit, so they thought I was a local businessman.DH: "A pencil pusher!"CR: Yeah, something like that. So I went on and played on that, "You can have little dreams as far fetched as they are at school" and then I'd say "Anyway, I didn't listen to the people who laughed like you guys are. And this is what happened." And then I'd hit play and have a showreel of me fighting famous people on the silver screen and breaking records and that sort of thing for five minutes. And then the lights would come up and everybody would be like open mouthed and you've got everyone's attention then!DH: And did you do a quick change? Were you in like medieval armour?CR: [Laughs] I should have done, shouldn't I! On fire! So I got a lot of positive feedback, it was quite emotional, I got a real kick out of doing that. And that set me thinking lots of people say "Well how did you achieve that? How can you be so tenacious to not give up with the numerous pitfalls?" And I started giving that some thought and was reading books on positive thinking and I'm a real nerd away from the set in terms of positive thinking. And I studied to be an NLP trainer, because I was interested in body language, dealing with actors and reading people's emotions. And we went back to that, assessing somebody who's a bit cocky - that could be somebody who's just a bit nervous or a bit nonchalant who's dangerous to himself. And you can assess all these things by body language, eye movement, when people are lying, telling the truth, so much. So that interested me, so I trained in NLP.And to cut a long story short, I trained in all these different disciplines and got to realising about imagery. When you surround yourself with images, it programmes your subconscious mind. And I realised that all through my childhood, my bedroom was full of pictures of stuntmen, Evel Knievel or TV shows and lots of stills of big stunts. And that started me thinking, "Oh I wonder if that's anything to do with it". So I went down that path and looked into it and discovered by experimentation that when you purposefully look at imagery, the world is your oyster. You can achieve absolutely anything. Because I did the same thing with world records. And I just tested this and everything came to fruition and that's what I've used since. It's like literally anything you wanted to do, it's a definite process of programming your subconscious mind and it comes into fruition.DH: Wow.CR: So I wanted to write that, once I found that out, I'd start doing talks about that and people were interested. And lots of people said "Oh, you should write a book!" And eventually I thought I'll add that to the list of things and start visualising.DH: Surrounding yourself with books!CR: Just visualising writing books, telling stories, because I'm a very shy person normally. So it's nice to be able to sit down there and just put pen to paper and tell it from the heart.DH: And it's something that's yours as well. It's not like you're coordinating or directing something or you're performing in somebody else's film. It's just your book.CR: Yeah, it's very personal. And it's done to help people and I've had some good feedback from people who've read it and said "Oh that's brilliant. I've put that into practice what you've said and that's happened".DH: Oh wow.CR: And that's nice, to make sure it's the right decision.DH: And so this was inspired by your talk at the school.CR: Yeah, that was the journey of it.DH: That is cool. We've done books, we've done world records, we've done nuts stunts! So this might be a quick one, my final question before we go to some questions from some fans. What is it about being a stuntman or a stunt coordinator do you think that... is there something that sticks out in your mind that the average person doesn't know? And it can be anything from like "Oh sometimes it's a bit dull, because you're just waiting around and then you've just got to go". Is there something that you think the muggles should know about being a stuntman that they don't know?CR: I mean I think you hit the nail on the head. In terms of the time it takes, most people would be surprised just how long it can take. I generally choose to work in television and it's a conscious choice. Some people who don't know me better think "Oh, you're doing TV shows? Is it not very busy? Is there not much work in film?" And I go "No!" If I do a fight scene for a TV drama, I can block that through in the morning - maybe an hour, an hour and a half tops and we may shoot that after lunch and probably finish that in the afternoon. A good fight scene, it will be done and dusted in the day. An identical fight scene in the movie would be a week of rehearsal and maybe four days to shoot it.DH: Wow, why so long?CR: Just the way they shoot it: the time it takes to reset, the cameras. And because it's expected, everything takes that long. On TV, we'll swing a lens - that's changing a lens on a camera, that'll be four minutes. On a movie set, that's big old cameras - in the old days, traditionally big heavy cameras with film in them. And it just took longer and it's expected that everything takes longer in films. So some people like that, I just get frustrated because I'm a jobbing coordinator. One day I'm doing a car chase, then I'm coordinating something on horseback, then on a speedboat doing second unit directing. Every day is different, so that's what I like about the job.DH: Kind of like moving, keeping things moving. Okay let's go to some questions from the web. So this is some questions from fans that we've put out on social media and have sent in, about The Goes Wrong Show and all that kind of stuff. Working with Mischief so careful what you say, I'm right here! [Laughs] So Bethany Weston asks: "Was there ever a stunt that the Mischief..." (I think I know the answer to this actually!) "Was there ever a stunt that the Mischief writers wrote that you thought was just too impossible to create in real life?"CR: What would your answer be first? I'm curious!DH: I think no. Because I think whenever we've asked you about stuff, I've always found you to be very engaged with the work and "Well yeah, anything is possible. We just need to figure it out. And if you've got enough money, then we can do it!" [Laughs]CR: So the financial time or a way of shooting it - with you guys, it's very, very different I have to say. Because I certainly go a lot further with what I would... there's a line where a stunt double takes over and that line with you guys is much further along than with everybody else.DH: Oh really?CR: Of course, yeah. Because you have that physical background and you all listen. So you've got that muscle memory and everything else. And so provided it's not going to be like a big impact, so if the guide absolutely had to be a drop onto the table that was going to breakaway - no matter how you did that, it was going to hurt. And I'd just question the validity of doing it yourself vs. you doing part of it onto a crash mat and a stunt double finishing that off in the cut if it worked visually.DH: Sure.CR: Because a stunt double will breathe out before impact, he won't get as winded necessarily. He can relax during a situation where you'd normally tense up, not that you guys couldn't. And then there's the insurance issue of "Okay well even if you do it perfectly, could that breakaway table splinter and scratch your face?" And that would ruin continuity or... there's always all these things on my mind. But certainly go a lot further down that line with you guys. But yeah that's my mentality: anything is possible across the board. We can create the illusion of [it], even though it sounds crazy - "Can somebody fall off six feet to a solid floor?" - well they could, but they'll probably break a rib. So I thought can we create the illusion of that and let's talk about fake floors or cheating it in a certain way.DH: So there are some stunts on other shows you've worked on or films or whatever that you get to a point where you're like "Someone's just going to get a bit of hurt doing this if that's what we want to do". Is there like a... because obviously you're going to try and mitigate injury as much as possible. But sometimes there's not much way around it? It's just someone falls through a table, they're going to get hurt at some point - I mean get hit by a car?CR: But even that, it's all fake. So the car in the movie or TV show can come round a corner on two wheels travelling at 40mph and a big old impact, someone spirals and hits the concrete and it's awful and they die in the show. In real life, that's never going more than 15mph.

DH: Sure, okay.CR: So it's done with camera angles. The guy never actually gets hit by his legs, he actually does a brake fall over the bonnet. Because if you were to slow it frame by frame, they jump up and allow that to sweep under them and they just brush the bonnet. The only impact is on the top of the windscreen, but before they impact they're throwing themselves into a tumble. So it takes out that sting.DH: Sure. So you're swinging your momentum into the car?CR: So you still catch and it still hurts - I'd say it's the same as an American footballer running into you and taking you out. [Both laugh] If you're stood on the grass in a field, it won't kill you but it's going to hurt - so you might want to pad up. So that's what we do, we pad up, cover any bony bits with pads, gel pads. But mainly it's an illusion: the car speed is slow, we're rolling through it and we're doing a brake fall when we hit the ground ideally.DH: And are you thinking about that kind of stuff, even some stuff that we do as well. As you're reading the script or talking to the actors or the doubles, are you creating it in your head and working with the director to figure out angles and speed and how you can do it in post? Is that all part of your job?CR: Yeah. I'll be honest... [Laughs] it gets frustrating, The Goes Wrong Show from a stunt perspective, what's very, very unusual is we can't place cameras where the stunt looks the best! So I've had to adopt this mentality which took a little while of "What does The Goes Right Show look like?"DH: Yeah, yeah!CR: So if you're filming from the front, we can't suddenly switch to a nice low angle of someone falling off a breakaway balcony or off camera, because why was the camera there? So I have thought this a few times: "Wouldn't it be great if the writers had a scene on that balcony, some dialogue filmed from that angle for a reason, so we've got that excuse to put the camera there".DH: I see so you can cut back to it.CR: So that we do get the optimum shot that looks the stunt look good. But often times it's a little bit frustrating that one of you guys does a fantastic stunt and it looks great, but it would look so much better if we were at a different angle or on a different lens. So there's a slight frustration there, but it is what it is! It's meant to look accidental! And it wouldn't look accidental if you got an optimum angle...DH: Angle on the perfect side. Because I remember chatting to Martin a lot, he's the director for those who don't know. And he has a similar thing with us, because we'll come up with a joke or whatever and he's just like, "Yeah... it's funny... but why am I filming that? Your show, it's not meant to go wrong - so why am I filming it?" [Laughs] And so yeah, it'll be the same: you come up with the best stunt and the best angle, but then actually it's like how do we get in then to make that work. So yeah, that must be really frustrating because you have such a wealth of knowledge of all the work you've done before, there's probably a part of you you're having to just silence. Like "If we just move the camera over here, it's going to look much better". But you kind of get that we can't do that, which must be really tough in the room.CR: Yeah it just comes with accepting the job and that's the territory. And going back to that you want to make it look as great as it can, so you want to make it look as realistically gone wrong - so you just move the goal posts.DH: Yeah, that makes sense. So next question is from I want to say Canzonett, I'm not sure I'm saying that right but it's a fantastic Twitter handle. So this is actually kind of leading into this, so Canzonett says "I assume that stunts don't suddenly pop up and stay the same, that they grow or shrink and transform and change". Can you tell us about a specific stunt from The Goes Wrong Show which kind of illustrates the idea, that it starts out as one thing then kind of morphs into something else. Or is it always kind of what you get in the script, you stick quite rigidly to it? Or does it evolve as you're rehearsing and shooting?CR: I think there's flexibility on both sides. Because the ideal with The Goes Wrong Show is to have the actors do the stunts. So when it crosses that line that we spoke about, so it would be... probably Season One [Christmas] one where Henry Lewis is Santa falling through the chimney. He did loads of that and he's done some great gags in the show. But just that one because there was a metal grate, somebody was physically falling. So that was evolving into we either use a paper grate for the fire place for him to land on, make him fall in a certain way and tone it down a little bit. But then again, that's a Martin thing - the director. Now it's a practical fire, we've seen it lit - because another gag was it burning some of the props. So if we've got that, it has to be a metal - because why would it suddenly squash under him when he lands. And you've reached that crossroads where it's either not going to be a lit fire and you lose that gag and it's always just a prop with a bit of flickering paper so he can land on it. And in that instance it's like, "No, it's quite a funny intro where the stocking catches fire". So that evolved to a stunt double just for that role.DH: Yeah, I remember that because he comes in head first as well.CR: Exactly. So it was just too risky.DH: And that was big Billy, Billy's great. So yeah, Henry Lewis - ladies and gentlemen - has a stunt double and his name is Billy and he's huge and lovely.CR: Big Billy!DH: So that must be strange for some things... you know the horror episode (it's Hen again) where he flies down the stairs. Obviously we just write that in a script, right - because that's funny. But then is it your job to come in and go, "Okay so how do we build that stunt and make it?" Because obviously Hen is facing out and we see him the whole time. So are you reading that and piecing bits together, who you need to contact? Or are you just kind of turning up and discussing it in the room?CR: So that's a good aspect of the show, something you don't get on every TV show - is I'm brought in quite early. And wile we're shooting one episode, if we're on episode three, I'm in meetings about episode four and five. So in that instance I was working with Dennis, the art director in charge of building the sets and that kind of ting. So it's great in that we have some rehearsal space and I can be chatting on the phone, looking at diagrams, rigging methods and then I can come. And have a little look at that, test it with a stunt double - I think I tested that one myself - just testing it so it's all working or if it's too quick or if that would be terrifying, which I thought to be honest! [Laughs] I took a ride on it and I thought "It works, but that will be scary for him!" And also on that instance, there was quite a lot of energy when it got to the bottom of the stairs and through him sideways through the wall. So if he didn't project, he would land quite hard on the floor and sort of cartwheel through the set. So there was scope there for injury, so again I had that trimmed down and I can pass the notes on. And then I turn up a week later and everything's been changed, like oftentimes quite excessively. Cutting scaffold in, rearranging a big build - that's expensive and time consuming, but it's done and it all works effortlessly on record day.DH: And we can achieve the thing we set out to achieve. That's really good, I think we've been really lucky with a lot of people like yourself and the creatives on the show. I think what we've tried to do on the show is create an environment that... I think it's probably less so for you, but certainly more for the other creatives - we try to create an environment where a lot of stuff we're doing has never been done before, it's like a new idea. And I think people really engage with that, they go "Okay! This is weird!"CR: It's a challenge, isn't it?DH: Yeah! "How do we make that happen?" And that's the fun part of it exactly: the challenge. I've got a couple more here, let's have a look. Alex asks: "What's been the most fun and most dangerous stunt to work on?" Could be on The Goes Wrong Show or anything.CR: I'm not sure I'd put the "most fun" and the "most dangerous" in the same answer! Oh gosh, it's so difficult... because every job you do is so different. I suppose again, whether I'd say it's fun... what happens is you do a stunt, you get excited when you're booked for a job. So as an example, I doubled an actor called Jim Caviezel in a film many years ago: The Count of Monte Cristo. And I was young at the time and it was like "We want to fly you out to Malta! We're going to filming in Malta and Comino all these under water scenes. You're going to be doubling the The Count of Monte Cristo himself! He escapes by being tied into a sack and thrown off this cliff - they think it's a body they're dumping, but he's hidden in this sack. So you're going to be doing that stunt. You're going to be diving for treasure and it's so exciting!" You know, this is what you chose for a living, like great and it'll be me on the screen diving for the gold, his fortune. And then you get there and it's very cold and very, very scary! [DH laughs] So in that scene it was a real cave in Comino, in a scene where he dives for treasure - and they started off with a pony bottle, a small breathing cylinder that you can put in your mouth. And filmed from behind, so as I swam away from camera down into a real cave - imagine like a u-bend in a sink! You started in a cave and it was the shape of a human eye, really lit beautifully, it looked amazing on screen. You swim down into that and when you get to the u-bend, that's where all the treasure was. And then if you swim up, it's the open sea, the ocean lighting it. So it was an amazing location. But it was probably the same as... not much further than swimming the width of a swimming pool. But when you do that and it's cold water and you've got a costume on - I had a sticky beard stuck to my face! [Laughs] I had a really long wig stuck to my face, rags as if I'd been in prison for many years. So you run out of breath about half way through, so I'd have a little breathe on this oxygen cylinder and then they started seeing the bubbles. So this is pre-CGI or just early days, too expensive to take them out in post. So it's "Do you think you can hold your breath that long?" And I thought "Not really, I will do my best. Can we have a diver on the ceiling of this cave?" And it's like "Well, you'd never get to him but... alright, if you give the signal that you're out of air, he'll get to you". So I had a mate, a man that had flown over anyway in the dive crew - he was on the roof of the cave. Then they put an oxygen cylinder in the treasure chest, so if I went into the middle chest and opened it - there was an oxygen cylinder to breathe on.DH: And you had to do that with your back to the camera?CR: And playing the part and acting as the Count and that was scary. So on one of the early takes, you've got no mask on - you take it for granted that you've got a regulator in your mouth and a mask and you can see. Well you've got none of that! You try and open your eyes and they sting, everything's a blur. And on one of the early takes, I swam and went off into a corridor in this cave.DH: You went the wrong way?CR: Yeah! Because I couldn't see anything! [Laughs] I've got no mask, nothing. And I was working with Shaun, the guy, recently - I hadn't seen him for a long time. And he says he'll remember that until his dying day, because he thought "Where's he going?!" He saw me just venture off a little bit, maybe 8ft off course but now I'm in a different cave with a dead end. Saw me get to the dead end, stop...DH: Oh, it's making me feel sick!CR: And I just sat and I crossed my legs.DH: What are you doing?!CR: Because if I panicked, I would have died. So that's what your taught: preserve your energy, you're almost out of air. I knew I had divers there and they all know what's going on and I just sat crossed legged. It felt like an eternity but it was probably 15 seconds before he got me and put the [mask on].DH: So did you stop moving and started meditating?CR: Yeah. And he said "I'll never forget that" - swimming as fast as he could, waiting for me to breathe in sea water while he got to me.DH: Curtis, that is nuts! That is nuts that that happened to you.CR: I know, it's crazy.DH: So your man was in the roof of the cave, he saw you swim off? So he was like "I'd better get after him!"CR: So he's watching the whole [thing]. He's nervous as well, he's holding the spare regulator in his other hand. Any problems, he's going to be on - he's got fins on, I haven't which is why I'm swimming really slow.DH: Yeah and rag and beard.CR: Yeah exactly. And then you can't see very well so we put a red light in the background, so that wouldn't happen again. We reset and had an underwater light placed - off camera you couldn't see it, but when I was underwater I could look and in the murk see that light. And as long as I swam to that red light, that's where the treasure chest was. But every take I would just get there in time and rip open the treasure chest and breathe and catch my breath. So it's claustrophobic and scary, but achieving that was such a challenge and getting all that great footage. And they just left on the finished film, you get a close-up of the actor starting that journey - then it's all me swimming, so they left it all in. It's a sense of achievement.DH: Wow, I haven't seen it. I really want to see that now. That really took me on a journey that one. Oh God, I think all the stuff I get - I think it's drowning, isn't it? And then you just being like "Oh I'd have died!"CR: Yeah, there's no middle ground there.DH: I think I've got us a bit excited and I think I've gone over time. So I'm going to jump straight to the quick fire section! So what I'm going to do is ask you a load of questions, they're just like really basic questions. Answer them as fast as you can! Go into your meditating state!CR: Okay!DH: Here we go: what is your favourite colour?CR: Purple.DH: Texting or talking?CR: Texting.DH: If you were an animal, which one would you be?CR: ...Stag [Both laugh]DH: So good! If you were a dessert, what would you be?CR: Oh my gosh, sticky toffee pudding!DH: Nice! Is a Jaffa Cake a cake or a biscuit?CR: Definitely a biscuit.DH: Oh nice! If you were one of the 52 playing cards, which one would you be?CR: The... nine of hearts!DH: Nine of hearts? Wow! What's in your pockets right now?CR: Money and credit cards.DH: Nice - taking those later! What is your favourite film?CR: Oh!DH: That's hard, that's a hard quick-fire one!CR: Um... gosh, a thousand films flooded into my mind!DH: What's the first film you just thought of?CR: Braveheart was the first one that popped in.DH: Nice - were you in that?CR: No.DH: Oh okay, good. And what is the best age?CR: 51.DH: 51, nice. And finally, who would be the best Mischief person to be trapped on a desert island with?CR: Gosh... no comment! [Laughs]DH: Nice! I said I'd try and get a no comment out of Curtis at the start!CR: There! You got it!DH: Done it! Excellent. Curtis, thank you so much. I completely lost track of time because you have such amazing stories - so my apologies if this has gone on for more than an hour! But I've had a fantastic time interviewing you. Thank you so much for coming in. I do the outro now where I say "You've been listening to me, Dave Hearn!" But you know that and this is our stunt coordinator for The Goes Wrong Show, Curtis Rivers. Do keep an eye out for our next episode and you can follow all of the latest Mischief stuff on all of our social accounts. So yeah, we'll look forward to... I'm going to look forward to hearing this back, this is going to be so great! Thanks for listening guys and keep on making Mischief!